Couples and Anxiety: A Deep Dive into Relationship Dynamics

Welcome to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We're your hosts, Dr.

Elizabeth Mackinbell and.

Cali Werner, both therapists and individuals that have navigated our own anxiety journeys.

Have you ever wondered how we became a society that is so defined by anxiety?

Tune in as we discuss, learn, and dive into what anxiety is, how we perpetuate it, and how we can stop it.

This podcast will be real, raw, and unfiltered, just like the anxiety that plagues so many of us.

We are here to push boundaries, challenge the status quo, and deep dive into topics that are sure to make you uncomfortable.

If you're ready to step outside of your comfort zone and explore the unfiltered truth that will help you change your entire relationship with anxiety and get back to living your life, you're in the right place.

This is the Anxiety Society podcast.

We live it, we contribute to it, and together, we can change it.

And there's one thing that I need from you.

Can you come through?

Welcome back to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

Today we are doing something we haven't done yet.

We're doing a couple's episode.

Happy Valentine's Day, Tyler.

Happy Valentine's Day.

How do you feel, Tyler?

Are you excited?

Are you nervous?

Are you wondering why you're here?

Uh, I'm always here, but I'm on the other side, so it's nervous, I would say.

Usually I let Callie do all the talking for anything that we do, but we're gonna switch it up today and make me talk.

Yes.

It's gonna be fun.

So maybe that is your anxious moment.

Is being very much so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you get off the hook today, but Callie doesn't and I don't.

So we will still start with anxious moment.

But today we are doing an episode where we're gonna talk all about relationships, Callie and Tyler's relationship.

And we'll talk a lot about anxiety and the way it gets in the way.

And I know that that's a question we frequently get, is a ton of people wanting to know, how do you talk to your significant other about anxiety?

How can they best support what goes well, what doesn't?

So we'll do our best to dive in today.

Yeah, I'm really excited.

I know Tyler's not, but he loves me, so he's here.

He's here.

That's the proof.

Yeah.

All right, Callie.

Anxious moment.

All right.

My anxious moment.

Today, I was actually looking at my calendar and saw that I had a talk, but I was on the wrong month, and it was already that time, and so I freaked out for a good 30 seconds.

You were missing a talk.

Cause I thought I was missing a talk.

Oh, geez.

Yeah, I feel like we've all done that at some point.

But yeah, so I started, like, catastrophizing in my head.

How am I going to explain this to them?

Took me about 30 seconds to realize I was in April instead of January or.

Yeah, wherever we are in this season.

You have plenty of time, actually.

So now you're ahead.

Yeah, plenty of time before all the other ones.

So that's my anxious moment.

But you've talked about this before, and I'm curious if this comes up and y'all relationship, but about how timeliness and punctuality is a big trigger for you.

Oh, my word.

Tyler, does this come up in our relationship?

I mean, just for you, not for me.

Yeah.

I'm happy with every day when we're going somewhere.

I am always ready before him.

Ready to be out the door and just kind of.

And I can't tell Tyler, this is.

Gonna be like a therapy session where we go back and forth.

Sorry it's your anxious moment, but I'm stealing the feel.

This feels great.

This is fun.

And today I can't tell Tyler we need to hurry.

Because if I tell him we need to hurry, he gets really frustrated and starts to slow down more.

That's how I am.

When Matt tells me that, like, for the airport, literally, you guys, I feel like I've been so flexible with Matt of being like, okay, you want to get there at this time, we'll split the difference.

I'm willing to do that, even though I think it's ridiculous.

But if he starts showing anxiety, I purposely move very slow because I'm like, I didn't want to go early anyways, and I was being nice, and now I'm not gonna.

I think we usually show up five minutes before the gate closes at the airport.

Yeah, that's true.

I don't have the airport anxiety.

Cause there's not like a specific person waiting on me usually that day.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It makes no sense.

It makes serological sense.

Just the plane and the pilot.

Yeah.

But even for.

We went to go see this play this past weekend and it was so fun.

But I took a 20 minute nap before Tyler woke me up and was like, what are you doing?

We have to hurry to get to the play.

And I was like, oh, I'm fine.

And I was ready within five minutes.

But he's nervous because he knows he won't get ready in that amount of time.

He had to take care of the puppies and put them, feed them and all that stuff.

And Callie got up from her nap and went and showered.

Went straight to it.

Yeah, yeah, I took care of those things too.

But that's another story for another day.

All right, Liz, your anxious moment.

My anxious moment.

So it's more of like a funny moment.

I don't know if it's anxious maybe a little bit, but I feel like my kids are growing up too fast and it's just happening quickly and it's making me a little bit anxious.

So last two days ago.

So Olivia I've talked about this has bedtime anxiety and we've worked a lot on it.

And so I'm very proud of her when she states something she wants to do different or like a way.

And so she has started as of two nights ago, that no grownups are allowed in her room and that we can't put her to bed anymore.

Wow.

And I'm like, okay, but like you're three, it's okay if I come in your room to put you to bed.

And it's very strict.

And so last night she was literally standing at the door with her arms out and I said, no, grownups are allowed.

And she does a great job.

She walks herself to bed and does it.

But it's kind of weird, right?

It's this like a kid who had so much anxiety about bedtime that she's taken ownership now, which is awesome.

And that's exactly what you want her to do.

And that parent piece of like.

But I kind of like liked that you were young and needed me and you don't anymore.

And so I feel like it was the first time I had a little bit more empathy for a lot of.

Not that I'd never have empathy for people, so that sounded bad, but that I could relate a lot more to so many parents who end up giving into their kids anxiety and ritualizing.

Because there is this piece too where you want them to not be anxious and it's a normal part of their anxiety and you not say coddling them, but taking care of them, of this motherhood where you're like, okay, now you don't need me anymore.

Right.

But do you think maybe since she is 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, all the way up to 8 year olds still get tucked in.

She won't let me.

You don't think she'll come back around to it?

I don't know.

But I was just like, who am I if you're usually anxious and screaming about needing help and needing people if you're like.

And she walked.

So last night, her and Grace share a room.

So I was like, well, Olivia, Grace kind of needs me to put her to bed.

Like, she's only two.

And she was like.

I said, no grownups allowed.

So you're like, throw her in her bed.

So I was like, tossed, like, trying to get Grace in her bed without going in the door.

And so Grace.

Grace is crying, and she's like, I need a blanket.

No one gave me a blanket.

So I get on the camera, and I'm like, olivia, can you at least give Grace a blanket?

And she was like, sorry, I'm in my bed for the night.

I'm not gonna get up.

But Grace, you can get it yourself.

Well, I feel like this is Grace's payback for all four.

Grace.

Yeah, exactly.

So, anyway, here we are.

But, yeah, it's just one of those things that I think sometimes, even when change is really good, sometimes it can bring on a little discomfort.

Right.

You're like, oh, this is weird.

We're growing up.

Or things are changing, and they can be changing for the better, but they're still strange.

Yeah.

Or sad or heart wrenching.

It's like Modern Family.

When we watched it last night, whenever the two parents were just sitting alone in their bed, all their kids were gone.

Yeah.

We looked at each other like, that could be us one day.

You're so boring, right?

Yeah.

18 years or 18, 20 years from now.

But it's like, oh, wow, that's gonna be horrible.

When we feel that way, feel alone and bored.

We'll travel, we'll do all the fun things.

It'll be a blessing.

We'll see.

Yeah, we'll see.

And you'll miss your kids.

But that perspective.

It is.

But no, it's also that perspective of, like.

I think one of the things we'll talk about today for sure is just how to navigate chaos in relationships.

Because I think that you guys, you know, all of us, but, like, certain times in our career and ages in our life, like, we just feel it a lot more.

And so many of us want to get out of it.

But then it's also that, like, remembering that you.

One day, you'll miss it to a degree.

Right.

You'll kind of wish you had nine puppies to take care of.

And you don't.

Maybe I won't ever wish that again.

Maybe in, like, six months.

My yard is ruined.

Yeah, the yard is ruined.

It's ruined.

And it was really nice.

Give me the puppy update.

Are they all gone.

Two left.

I wanted Tyler to bring one today so that you could see it, just to make sure you didn't want to adopt it, because I don't have enough.

These are nice wood floors, and we don't want them to ruin that.

But I could foster.

You could.

Because my girls would love it.

Yeah.

And you could give her back whenever you want.

They're getting more potty trained now, so.

Yeah, they're getting there.

Oh, my gosh.

How cute.

Tomorrow, talk about y'all.

So tell everybody kind of how y'all met, your story, where you're at.

All of the above.

Tyler, you take it away, and I'll fill in some details.

Yeah, I've actually only heard Callie's story about how y'all met.

So today I get to hear your perspective.

So that'll be interesting.

That'll be interesting then.

So, I'm a firefighter for the Houston Fire Department, and whenever I met Callie, I was driving the ambulance that day, and I saw her and her roommate wearing short shorts and bras, running down the street.

Not bras.

Sports bras.

Sports bras, sorry.

Running down the street.

So I did what every fireman would do and gave them a little honk and a siren, let them know, hey, y'all look good.

We're crushing it.

Great work.

Y'all are doing awesome.

A little misogynistic for today's age, but, I mean, it worked for me that one time.

And eventually that one time, not all.

The other 20 times.

Yeah, the other times.

We won't talk about the other pastimes, but this one.

Meantime, it worked.

And that's the only time I wanted it to work.

But I waited till she ran by the station, then I waved to her, and then I didn't know she lived a couple houses down from the fire station, so I went on another call, and whenever I got back to the station, there was a note on the table downstairs, and it was her phone number and asking me out on a date, kind of.

Or saying, hey, call me.

I said, two, EMS guy.

EMS guy driving the ambulance.

If you ever want to get coffee sometime, here's my number.

And it hurt because.

Not EMS guy, firefighter.

EMS isn't the fun part.

He was driving the ambulance.

I didn't want.

Otherwise, no one would know who I was talking about.

I knew he was driving the ambulance.

But did you know he was a firefighter?

I didn't know.

Yeah, I know a lot more about all that stuff now than I did at the time.

That's true.

So tell your Side of the story and why you left the note.

Okay, my side of the story.

I had a bet with a friend who actually worked here.

We were both residential counselors, and she said that if I didn't go on a date by a certain time, I had to make a swiper.

Dating app.

Dating app.

Yeah.

Tinder.

Some kind of whatever those are.

Bumble.

Bumblebee bubble.

I can't even tell you, and I really didn't want to.

Nothing against those.

I have some incredible friends who have met their lifelong partners on there, but I was just kind of like, okay, I'm going to go on a date, because I don't want to make one of those accounts.

And so I saw Tyler, thought he was easy bait and.

Just kidding.

I'm just kidding.

But I.

How anxious were you hit the jetpack.

When you wrote that note and left it?

I'm going to be honest, I wasn't.

I've always been kind of bold in.

That way that caused me so much anxiety.

So I'm so impressed.

I'm okay with being for those kind of specific things if it comes to work or academics, whole different story.

But when it, at the time came to my interest in dating, I always had, in the back of my mind, worst thing that can happen is I get told no.

And I practiced a lot because I would go country dancing, and so I always wanted to be on the dance floor, so I would just constantly ask.

And I got good at asking and being okay with exhausting.

Yeah.

People that said no.

Yeah.

Tyler prefers that I ask people instead of him to dance.

I dance with her once or twice a night, and then I just say, go have fun and dance with whoever you are.

You just watch.

She's too much energy.

And I.

My hips start hurting, my feet start hurting, and it's like, no, we're good.

He's like, I'm done with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

But I decided to write him a letter.

Thought he was cute when he got out of the ambulance.

So I got to see full stature and everything and thought it would be nice to meet him.

So I wrote that letter.

And then I had to come here to the clinic to do an RC shift.

So I was just kind of sitting on my hands, hoping he would text me.

And he did.

Yeah.

How long did it take you to text her, Tyler?

I think that night y'all came up.

It was that night.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it took a couple hours.

It wasn't that long.

Yeah.

I mean, there's 10 other guys at the station that encourage Any type of fun.

So they're going to say, text her back and tell him to come say hi.

They had all looked me up on Facebook before he even got the letter.

So they opened it for him.

They discouraged me, but it was like, I'll give her a chance.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we always make this joke, like, was he really honking at me or my roommate?

We'll never know for sure.

But it all worked out in the end.

Yeah.

Is your roommate with someone else now?

She is.

Okay.

They're engaged.

There you go.

So at least there's not like that, you know?

Yeah.

I took the guy from you sort of thing, so as your relationship.

And that was how long ago?

Seven.

Yeah, seven years ago.

Seven years ago.

Okay.

And so you're both from Houston.

Ish.

And tell us about just, like, how the relationship evolved when you got married.

All of the above.

You first.

You can go first this time.

I'm first.

Last.

I'm trying my hardest not to overpower the mic.

I think we started dating.

Not until October.

So when we met was July.

We didn't officially start dating until October.

Why?

What took so long?

Tyler.

I was having fun after college.

He was a little rowdy.

A little rowdy.

Not the best human being, so.

Oh, no, you're a good human being.

Just rowdy.

Yeah, I wasn't.

I didn't treat women.

You weren't ready yet.

I was dating a few people at the time, needed some time, so.

Yeah, that's fair.

Okay.

But better than pretending like that wasn't the case.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Actually, she didn't know until, like, maybe we got married or.

No.

Yeah, we were engaged.

But no, I caught up on the rowdiness.

Or caught on on the rowdiness pretty quickly.

And I was the one that said, let us be friends.

Got was around October, though.

I remember we were on the dance floor, Imagine that.

Dancing to a country song, and I said, do you not want to ask me to be your girlfriend?

Or something like that?

And he goes, you know I love you, right?

And I was like, whoa, I just wanted you to ask me to be your girlfriend.

And.

Yeah.

Then over time, really recognized that we had a lot of the same values and cared about all the same things, and he was amazing with my anxiety, and it was unlike anything I'd ever experienced.

So he's a pretty damn good guy.

Curse word in there.

I appreciate that.

Yeah.

All right.

What's your fill in?

Shows that it's meaningful.

Yeah, mine was.

I mean, like I said, I was a little bit dating a Few people at the time, so not the best person.

But I think when I met Callie, she was probably the.

I figured out pretty fast that she was the right person for me to change me to the man I want to be.

So kind of, I guess, ended all the other talking to slash relationships that I had going on.

And I did it the honest, right way with her.

So I kind of just figured out she was the one for me and wanted to be that guy for her.

You took it slow in the sense of like committing until you knew you were ready.

And then once you did, you were there.

Pretty much.

It was Josh Abbott band I wish or no, what was the song?

No, we don't need to share it.

I wasn't that drunk.

Whenever I told you I loved you and it was a good little time.

I love it.

And I love that you remember that.

Do you?

I don't love that we shared that.

I make notes in my phone just so I can be sentimental sometimes.

That's great.

So I'm curious to hear about the way anxiety impacted Yalls relationship.

But more importantly, like, to start of just like, how did you talk to Tyler about both what you do or Tyler, how did Callie tell you?

But also when did she disclose her story about anxiety and ocd and what was that like for you of hearing about it?

I always knew.

Well, whenever I met you, I think Hurricane Harvey happened soon after that.

Yeah.

So I knew you worked here because you had to come up here during the.

Oh yeah, you were on the Ride out crew.

Yeah.

So I had to watch your house and.

Or not watch your house, but just check on it a couple times.

So I knew you're involved in the OCD community, but I don't think you really told me how much anxiety and OCD had an impact on your life until like further on in our relationship.

So it was kind of like you know, the person then you slowly let more and more out as you get to know them.

Yeah.

But I would say probably the first thing I think you told me was the road bumps, incidents or potholes.

Whenever you hit one of those, you'd always have to go back and check to see if you hit anybody.

You actually experienced a rough side of that at one point too.

I remember bringing you out.

I think we were still dating.

To go check with me at one.

Point, and that's Westheimer and you went with her.

What were you thinking?

I always wonder that, like, when Matt's in the middle of one of my rituals or is witnessing it, like, what is he thinking?

That's a good question.

I mean, so I'm a firefighter, so our whole nature is to help people or rescue people.

So it's more of a.

That's kind of my job is to help or rescue Callie from what she's going through.

So it's not like an inconvenience for me or anything.

It's more I want to help her get through this and make sure that she's going to be okay.

And then I didn't know anything about it, so I didn't know how much I was getting into with encouraging or reinforcing her.

You didn't know, like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this.

Right.

You're just like, okay, like, you're worried.

I'll go with you and make sure it's fine.

We'll keep checking every time.

But as she told me, hey, it's not good to reinforce these intrusive thoughts then.

It's more of a game for me now.

Well, let's not do that.

Yeah, he takes it the other extreme now.

It's the other extreme.

Okay.

Yeah.

So when you started to learn and realize that, okay, Callie's actually living with ocd, or she did lived with it more severely, maybe less.

Now, what was that like for you at that point?

Because she had kind of slowly dosed your knowledge about her own anxiety?

Was it something that just wasn't a surprise?

You kind of were like, oh, yeah, I already knew that, and I've already seen that.

Or was.

Was there a big piece of you that's like, oh, that's.

I had no idea.

I think it was a more picking it out that she had, like, a lot of anxious thoughts and stuff.

But I don't think it really have changed my thoughts on her or her life.

Because when you care about somebody so much, it's more of a, I'm just gonna get through it with you and make sure that it's not a problem for us later on.

Or I don't want her to sit, go to bed at night just staying awake worrying about what happened that day from her ocd, thought.

So it's more of a.

I just want her to be happy and help her through everything.

So he.

I will say, after we went and did the drive around to check all the potholes in the Montrose area, the next week, I had him come with me to see my therapist.

Okay.

And that was really helpful and I think gave him a lot of insight into what was going on.

And we set up a plan on how he can support without accommodating so.

I'm curious, Callie, what that was like for you, and if there was a change in the behavior around the way you wanted Tyler to approach your OCD and anxiety versus previous relationships as well.

Like, did you, like, I know for me, with Matt, it was very different of me feeling like, okay, I really want him to understand, but I also don't want him to get wrapped in.

Right.

Because I know that this isn't good and this isn't healthy.

And I was at a, like, a different place in recovery of, like, not feeling like everyone had to accommodate my anxiety or ocd.

Yeah, completely.

So, yeah, in previous relationships, I had almost relied on them for my happiness.

Right.

Because I felt like I absolutely needed that reassurance.

And after I had gone through a breakup, we went through a lot of family stuff as well.

It was the first time, I think, in my life because before I was dating someone, it was always my mom that I would go to for reassurance.

And then it became the person I was dating.

I had to learn how to independently manage my OCD for the first time.

And so I saw that I was capable of doing that before I met Tyler, and I adamantly did not want to carry that same pattern over into our relationship.

And so I.

I know I was the one that.

I saw a glimpse of that when I brought him to go do that checking with me.

And first thing was like, this cannot be.

I can't start this.

Yeah, yeah.

And.

And I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like a lot of our patients talk to us about how once they ask somebody to give in once, it's easier to keep asking.

So it's also like, okay, I saw that in your self awareness to be like, okay, I don't want to keep going down that route.

And I don't want our relationship to become where my OCD is.

What's playing a bigger role than the relationship itself.

Right, right.

And it overpowers the ability to even have a relationship.

OCD becomes the relationship.

And so, yeah, I think we became a lot stronger through that situation.

And I will say we had some pretty valid anxiety early on in our engagement.

Just life events that were happening that.

Made our whole engagement, first year of marriage, a lot happened.

I always like to say, so much happened in that first year and a half that usually takes couples, like, 10 years to get to.

It was very condensed and very rough.

And so I think we built a lot of resilience in that time to be able to say, gosh, if we could handle all that, then we can handle what's coming.

And it made us less afraid.

And so, Tyler, for you, when you went to that first therapy session with Callie's provider and you were kind of under, like, you know, I don't know what y'all talked about, but I'm sure you were starting to understand OCD or anxiety to a degree.

What did that feel like for you?

Like, were you excited to learn about it, to be a part of that, to understand how to better help her?

Were you kind of like, oh, I.

I don't know if I want to take all this on.

I'm just curious that early on.

Honestly.

Honestly, I don't remember going to a therapy session with you.

Oh, okay.

Which says it about my memory.

But, I mean, so for my job, I don't.

I can block out incidents or traumatic incidents pretty easily.

Not saying that the therapy session was traumatic.

What did y'all talk about?

My.

Tyler's blocked this out.

My memory is horrible.

Long term memory is pretty bad.

So when you said that, I was like, I went to a therapy session with Callie and I don't even know with who or what it was during.

COVID times, so I feel like that was all a blur.

But.

Yeah, you did.

It was virtual.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, even if you don't remember that, how do you feel like now you understand anxiety and OCD compared to when you first started dating Callie?

So when I first started dating Callie, I didn't know anything about it, but now I feel like I can give one of Callie's speeches to people just right off the bat.

Like, I used to listen to him all the time, but then I realized, okay, I know this in this part of her speech.

So I just quit going to all of her talks over time.

And now when people say use OCD in the wrong way, I correct them and stuff like that, just to be kind of smart to them.

But also educational.

Sure.

Because a lot of people don't know.

And then you hear the wrong use of OCD and it's like, do better than that.

Come on.

Yeah, you're not using it the right way.

It's the wrong stigma.

Totally.

How often do you see it in the field?

You know, anxiety, panic attacks?

Too often.

Yeah, I can imagine.

And you probably might not have known that's what it was before you met Callie.

Like, I bet your awareness has really increased around how often you're responding to anxiety and health anxiety and things like that.

Yeah.

I mean, so there's a Fire Station 15 that responds to Yalls clinic a lot, which I work at sometimes, but I've never actually responded here.

But a lot of the times we get just anxiety where people complain of tingling fingers or lightheadedness.

And not to say that it's not a reason to call 91 1, but it can get annoying to us because we're not trained in that field.

So to us, it's just, calm down, breathe.

You're doing this to yourself.

You're only working yourself up more by breathing faster, and you're not distributing the oxygen correctly and releasing everything.

So that's why your fingers tingle.

And we just kind of get frustrated, especially in the middle of the night when we get called out because it's an emergency to them, but to us, it's like, if you just calm down your breathing, you can get over this.

But we don't have the training for that.

Right.

So I'm curious if you would say that ems, fire, all of the above, need help with both resources and more training around how to address anxiety in the field.

Correct.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, but also, we really can't do much as firefighters for them because.

Right.

And you can't, like, diagnose on the spot.

You know, it's hard.

You have to rule out everything else.

And then you're kind of saying, okay, but it would be nice if you're able to give a pamphlet or something.

Right.

And say, hey, maybe here's some good resources for you as well.

If this could be anxiety, I will.

Say, I think your language around anxious people, that call has definitely become more empathetic since we first started dating.

How so?

I just.

I.

Well, I'm not going to share the language.

From early on when you were first taking those anxious calls, especially like, around Covid and things like that, which I can imagine any firefighter that is on two hours of sleep getting the same call over and over again would be exhausting.

But I don't know, I just think your education and understanding of it comes out very clearly.

Yeah.

And the cops.

So we're.

We do ems, but we don't have a mental health team that'll come out.

But the Houston Police Department, they have people that we would call out for mental health problems.

They have the guys that are trained for that.

So, I mean, that's something that we don't get trained in.

Right.

But we call HPD to do that, which, I mean, kind of makes sense, but also doesn't make a lot of sense, because I guess if they're having a true manic episode, they're Gonna have to put them in custody.

But also, we have no training on what to do until the cops get there.

So it's kind of a what do I do?

Just try to relate to you or something like that.

But we can add that to our 2025 clinic goals to increase education to first responders because there's such a need for it.

We know that.

So back to you guys.

I guess one thing I would love to hear is where anxiety shows up now.

So at this point, we're talking seven years later from when you first kind of were maybe going over road bumps and really getting some basic understanding of the way your OCD and anxiety showed up.

But I can also imagine that throughout the years you've seen some of Tyler's anxiety.

Right.

It's.

Anxiety is not.

We all live with it.

It's not isolated to one person.

Maybe yours was more significant or diagnosable.

But I'm just curious if, like, today.

Well, maybe before we start with today, let's start with over the past seven years.

What are some of the main areas that y'all would say?

Like, if Callie.

You said, here's places I see anxiety show up for Tyler or Tyler.

If you say that about Callie outside of ocd, what would it be?

You know, I would say I really didn't notice much anxiety in Tyler until we moved into this new house.

Okay.

Which was this year, to the same house, into our new house.

Oh, new house.

Yeah.

Which was just like this past October.

I mean, it was definitely there, but I just wasn't aware of it.

And I think that's what's so interesting.

Right.

When it's in your own inner circle, it's a lot harder to see.

And you just mark it off as a quirk.

Like, oh, that's just how they are.

That's just them.

Yeah, exactly.

So I know you're going to hear some of this, but.

Yeah, just there's a lot of house projects as there are when you go into a new home, and Tyler is incredible at doing them.

And the list keeps piling on that.

Callie gives me, and it's my turn to speak.

No, no, I know.

I'm just helping you.

Yeah.

But he's incredible at doing the work, but really fixates on the details, and so takes him a long time to move forward from one thing to the next.

And you'll be the first to say that, um, if you give me a month timeline, that it'll be done to add on, like, two months to that.

And so he's just like a Normal contractor.

Yeah, I guess so.

I guess so.

All of them that give us deadlines, and they're not real.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

Are you meticulous, Tyler?

Is that, like, you want it done a certain way, it needs to be perfect, or.

I want it done the right way.

Yeah.

And if I want to do it the first time, I don't want to go back and fix it later.

So even though it doesn't need to be fixed.

Sorry, it's your turn to talk.

Your definition of good is, let's just slap it up there and then it looks fine to me.

But my definition is I'm going to do it to the best of my ability.

And what we're talking about is the bed frame and the cabinets, I'm assuming.

Everything that you've done.

So, yeah, there's a whole process of the way to do it the right way and make it look good and professional.

And I've never done it before, so I'm guesstimating how long it'll take me.

And with my job and everything else going on, it always ends up taking longer.

But I'm gonna do it to the best of my ability and make sure that it's done to how much, how I would like it done.

So your preference with a project?

Like, if I asked you to hang a photo, would you just, like, guesstimate and throw a nail on the wall and get the photo up, or would you get a level, make sure it's right, measure it?

I would do that.

You would do it the right way.

Yeah.

Which is the right way.

Find the style.

I would probably do the first route just to get the photo on the wall.

But guess what?

I mean, to Tyler's defense, Callie, in, like, two weeks, I would be complaining to Matt, like, the photo's crooked and look at it and it's not right.

And he'd be like, well, you should have done it right the first time.

That's true.

No.

And like I said, once the projects are done, I am so grateful.

This stuff I could never do, I would never have the patience for.

But, you know, like, there's certain things.

For example, this beautiful bed frame that he stained a color that I wanted it to be stained.

He's going around with a flashlight, shining it on the bed frame, and he's like, look, that part's uneven.

And I'm like, tyler, who's going to bring a flashlight and shine it on all parts of the bed frame to find the certain section.

But I think it's a lot of.

I mean, I Have a ton of my own things.

It's your turn.

You're up next.

But that's kind of the main thing I've recognized.

And the other anxiety that Tyler's had has just been.

And I want to unpack it, though, for a second.

Callie, for you, is the anxiety more rooted in, like, I just want this done and I want our house to feel finished, or is it that it's taking Tyler away from spending time together?

Like, what is it that bothers you that if it takes longer?

I think it's more of.

Yeah.

Like, it's.

It's a mess right now because we have, like, tarps and all these things hanging.

So I just want some normalcy.

Yeah.

Okay.

Mainly just want the projects done right.

Like.

Yeah.

Whether they're done right or perfect, you don't really care.

You just want them right.

Right.

And your answer is, like, I want them done when they're done.

Right.

She wants a minimalist house and, like, everything to be done.

But we bought.

Not a fixer upper, but it's.

It's a house that needs a lot of work to look like a home.

So I know it'll take forever, so it'll never be what she really wants until.

Well, I think that's where we differ.

Is gonna take forever?

No, not great.

But I don't.

Never gonna be done.

I think I've gotten, since we moved in, much better at, like, learning to have the right expectation and knowing that, yeah, it's.

We're gonna always have projects because the house will always be molded if it's a long term house.

But yeah, I think for me now it's just more of, like the chaos of the moment.

I can be fine with us waiting to do another room, another project a long time from now.

But yeah, so it's just whatever project is being done, you want that one to get finished.

It's almost done.

But we had this conversation a week or two ago where she was already sending me ideas for our bedroom.

You asked me to.

She was already sending me ideas for the bedroom, and I was like, let me finish the kitchen first.

I'm feeling overwhelmed right now.

Once you said that, I didn't send them, but I will say you did ask me to send you those.

Yeah.

And it was a ton of stuff, but we're learning how to communicate better that way.

And how do you do?

I'm curious.

Cause this comes up a lot for us around urgency.

So for me, if there's something I want done, I'm really strict about.

And we need to do it now.

Cause I want it done so I can relax.

So, for example, we have twins coming.

So it's like, matt, here's our list of what we have to finish.

We need to get this done this weekend.

And he's like, well, why do we need to get it done by this week?

Well, because, A, we don't know when the babies are going to come, but B, I don't want it to just be.

I keep thinking about it until it's done.

It's just on my mind of, like, we need to go to storage.

There's stuff we need to do.

Whatever.

How does that play out for y'all around?

Like, do you have different expectations around timeline or urgency?

Or, hey, why are we watching a show when we should be getting this finished?

Definitely.

I think with each of our own personalities and expectations.

Like, I think I have that problem in some areas, and I think Tyler has that problem in some areas, too.

For me.

Especially, like, when something gets ordered on Amazon that we know we need to return.

Return.

I cannot stand still having it same.

Did you know they'll pick it up from your house now?

No.

Yes.

It costs like $6, so it's really only worth it for big items.

But you can choose UPS pickup from your own house, and you just print the label and put on your front door.

And I just want y'all to know it's a little.

We should do that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I did not know that.

That's right.

I have two pairs of pants that need to go back.

Yeah, see?

Yeah.

I just returned.

I was so mad at myself and Matt because I.

We had to buy new car seats.

Matt's not here to defend.

He's not here.

So it's fine.

We had to buy new car seat bases.

And then this weekend when he was like, I don't know, hitting golf balls or something, I was going through cabinets and I found the old car seat bases.

And I was like, I knew we had these and we didn't need to buy new ones.

But anyway, they'll pick it up from your front door, so it's a game changer.

Okay, Tyler, where are you?

When Matt was hitting these golf balls, he was releasing some stress or anxiety.

Exactly.

There's a much needed Matt.

Exactly.

So I want to hear where you feel like Callie's anxiety shows up now and where you see it the most in yalls relationship.

I would say the most is just our house being a mess.

But there's really no way to have a clean house when you have 13 dogs.

Now we have seven dogs, so it's a complete.

Wait, I thought you only have two dogs left.

Two dogs that need to be adopted left.

We have three.

You have five of your own dogs.

We have three of our own dogs.

So the mom we still have, she's not gonna be claimed until February.

My parents are taking one of the dogs, but they're like, we'll take her when she's potty trained.

Oh, my goodness.

Okay, so you've got at least two.

You've got four that are not going to be with you, but they're still with you right now.

Goodness.

That's our problem, is we just take in random dogs at all times.

You do?

Yeah.

Y'all do.

We need to start our own.

Izzy, I just want to say she found us.

She found us.

Okay.

But, yeah, I would say mostly it's just a clean house.

And I try to keep.

Keep a clean house, but then I also try to finish projects.

So it's.

What do I do?

Clean house or finish the project.

And it's a hard thing to balance, but which.

Sorry.

Despite it.

Go ahead.

I would say one of my main things I focus on is whenever Callie gets home from work, it's.

I'm going to quit working just because I don't want it to become a problem where we're not spending time with each other because I'm doing a project.

The project can wait till later on, and we'll spend time with each other that time.

Yeah.

Especially your work is, like, 24 hours.

Right.

So when you're gone, you're not home at all.

Yeah.

And I was just gonna say, despite it feeling kind of like a tough season for us, I think how anxiety has been portrayed in our relationship has changed so much.

Totally.

I was just gonna say, like, I'm so proud of the fact that y'all aren't even talking about it showing up and running and in these places where it predominantly did throughout your life, like, what an area of growth.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

No, I think it's really good.

And we sometimes don't take a moment to pause and reflect on that.

That it is really good.

Yeah.

I'll have to have Matt on soon, but we can talk about.

I had, like, my first bad anxiety trigger last week in a long, long time.

And I was so worked up about it, and he got so worked up about it and Matt's whole thing.

I'm curious if you deal with this, Tyler, because you said earlier, like, your job is to help people.

Matt's whole thing is he Hates seeing ME anxious at all.

Because he wants to fix it.

Right?

Like he doesn't.

And so he kept saying, I kept saying to him, like, matt, you can't fix this.

Like, I need to just, you need to just let me feel uncomfortable and like, I'll work through this.

And he was like, yeah, but I don't like that.

He's like, I don't want to see you anxious.

Like it was, it was causing him anxiety to see that I was struggling.

Right.

Or you talked about earlier, like, you don't want Callie to go to bed worrying or having intrusive thoughts or being anxious.

And you can't always control that.

So I'm curious for you.

Do you feel like your own tolerance of anxiety and distress or when other people are struggling has shifted over the years?

I think with my line of work, it's easier to disassociate with other people's anxiety and stress.

Whenever something happens at our house right now, a puppy's knocking over something and a 10 pound weight falling on a dog's foot.

Like, I'll have that initial reaction of Callie screaming and then me kind of freaking out for a second, but then I realized, okay, that's all.

And now let's figure out what to do with it.

So it's more of a.

I react to the situation right away, but then after that it's I.

I'm calm and trying to figure out what to do or something.

But with Callie freaking out or her anxiety moments, I know there's nothing I can do to fix it really.

Or I'm not supposed to fix it because that's just reinforcing her thoughts.

So I just try to help her out, get through it with whatever way she wants me to by letting her rest or sleep or something like that or whatever.

Yeah.

So what does that look like?

Like, if you notice Callie is visibly anxious.

How.

What do you do?

Do you ask her what she needs?

Do you give, like, what, how do you respond now versus the way you might have responded in the past?

Yeah, it's more asking.

Because guys natural tendencies are to fix problems.

So I know I can't fix her anxiety needs, but it's asking her what she wants.

And then she usually lets me know.

She'll tell me all the problems that she's having, but it's more listening instead of trying to fix because I'm not qualified to fix that.

Or I know she'll have a therapy session or something like that to fix it.

Where.

Yeah, and it's more, I want to be Clear, too.

It's not like, OCD things that I'm sharing now.

It's more of, like, I just need to vent and he is a great listener.

Or I'm feeling overwhelmed or I'm frustrated or these things happen.

Right.

And even ocd, like, you still probably have some OCD triggers.

Right.

But it's very different.

I think, like, I was trying to talk to Matt about this last week is I.

We sat down on the couch.

It had been, like, a crazy couple weeks for us, and I was like, can I tell you a couple things that I've really been struggling with?

And he's like, yeah, of course.

And so I talked.

I told him about a couple, but it's like, two days later.

It's not in the moment.

Right.

Where when in the past, the old me would have been immediately run for reassurance asking the questions, you know, versus, like, ugh, I want to share how I'm feeling and why this has been hard.

Yeah.

I do think the questions that makes me think of that I still ask Tyler sometimes is, like, I said this to this person.

Do you think that's okay?

Okay.

It's a lot of what I say on the podcast.

Is this okay?

Yeah, before.

That's true.

I do that a lot this morning.

Or is it going to upset this person that I shared this story kind of stuff?

And then our runs are when Callie vents.

Yeah.

Like, the first 10 to 15 minutes.

Y'All can talk during runs.

There's zero chance I could do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But no, I think you're pretty good at answering those kinds of questions.

Usually he will, like, crack a joke and be like, eh, yeah, maybe.

Or we've talked about before.

Sometimes you'll, like, play devil's advocate, right?

Yeah.

That's where I get in trouble.

Yeah.

What would I need to hear?

Right.

Not at all.

Makes you more enjoyable.

It upsets you so much, and it's.

I haven't done anything.

What are your lessons learned as people who've been in a relationship?

It's working.

It's going great.

You've grown a lot.

You've changed a lot.

You've had a lot going on in recent years and months.

But what would you tell people who are entering into a relationship?

And we all know anxiety is gonna play a role whether someone has a diagnosable anxiety disorder or they're just entering into a relationship in general.

Anxiety is gonna come up.

Stress is gonna come up.

Life is gonna happen.

What are your biggest takeaways that you feel like y'all Far as how to weather storms, maybe we can go back.

And forth, but the first one that comes to mind is you grow through what you grow through what you go through.

Right.

So I think early on in our marriage, I knew, okay, there are going to be some hard times that we are going to have to work through, and we are going to figure it out together as we go.

Yeah.

With the bumps along the way, we learned a lot, and none of it has to be permanent.

I think one of the reasons I married Tyler is because I know that he always wants to grow.

And instead of, it's harder when someone has the mindset of, I don't want to fix that, or I don't want to change that.

And we're both pretty adaptable and want to help each other get to new levels.

She's made me do therapy over the years since we've met.

So we've done couples therapy, and then I recently started singles therapy.

Singles.

We've ended it.

Individual therapy.

We figured out she was the problem, but.

Oh, my goodness.

But, yeah.

Do you feel like that's been helpful?

No, I want people to hear this, especially men on, like, listening to the podcast.

Like, has therapy been helpful for you?

The couple's therapy helped us a lot, figure out what ways to talk to each other.

And then I also felt it was.

I'm not the best at communicating feelings or anything like that.

So it was kind of, we talk about our problems, and then the therapist decides, okay, you're right.

He's right.

It's more of a mediator, so we can both get our problems out.

And then he kind of tells us how to figure out how to get through it.

So I felt that was a easier way to figure out our love languages or ways to talk through all of our problems.

And the singles therapy, I just had individual.

Individual therapy.

That's the right word.

I've had, like, two sessions with that, but that's harder because I have my own homework to do, and it's.

It's different.

Yeah, but can you have own thoughts?

And I was supposed to journal every night, and I've done it one night just because it took me, like, an hour to write down all my feelings.

And it was a lot.

It was back when we were in a rough patch during the holidays.

But you could get a voice memo, like, do a voice memo instead of journaling if that's easier.

Yeah, I.

I could, but, I mean, it's.

Then I'd have to listen to myself talking.

That's not fun at all.

Well, do You.

But answer honestly, do you feel that it's been like, can you see that it's beneficial?

Or it could be beneficial for individual.

It could be.

Right now, I.

I'm not sure.

I mean, I started it when I was going through a rough time with work and holidays and house projects and stuff.

So I was at like, a low, tired, anxious moment in my life.

But, I mean, I guess you have to start low to build yourself up.

And I've started doing my homework more to sharing my feelings with you and how I feel instead of just holding everything in.

So you're getting more of my thoughts and feelings to react to me better and know how I feel instead of just holding my disappointment or anger inside and being happy that way.

I think one of the big takeaways that I've experienced, even just from your first two sessions, is that he had homework to share some of how he was feeling with me.

And instead of just kind of sharing it as it went, he waited until the end of the month and had a long list of things to share with me.

That was our plan, though, after the holiday, so we didn't ruin Christmas.

Because you're a Grinch and Christmas is an amazing time of the day, the season.

Yeah, yeah.

So what we mean by that is that Callie's talked about the number of Christmas trees Tyler requires versus Callie and that sort of thing.

Right?

Yeah.

Four Christmas trees per room versus I'm good with the.

Just the one in the house.

Yeah.

But I think that was really helpful for our communication style because Tyler had been holding all these things in, so of course he is angry and frustrated.

And then for me, it was hard to hear all those things laid out at once.

I am kind of like, I wish you would have just told me as it.

It went.

And so to me, that was super beneficial because we learned a lot about communication styles and what would help.

What else?

Other tips and tricks.

So couples therapy.

Very useful, especially for before marriage, I would say if, like, you're going to take that next step with that person because, I mean, when.

Whenever we met, we just slowly let out our craziness, or not craziness, but like our problems or our past over time.

And it.

I guess that was a healthier way for us at the moment, but we didn't really know how to communicate together, share everything to where we felt comfortable doing that or we had that trust.

So, yeah, yeah.

I think it's another tip that would be really beneficial is just to be open and learn from each other, but also having that third party there to say, you know, this might might be more of your anxiety instead of something that's beneficial as a preference.

Could you see how if you change that, some really great leeway could be present.

It's really hard to do self reflection and I think that's kind of one of the key factors that makes a good relationship a good relationship.

And I'm not sitting here on a pedestal saying we've got that down because we don't, but we are so much better at it than we used to be.

And you have to get past that point of being afraid.

Right.

Self reflection is scary because you recognize, oh yeah, there might be some mistakes that I'm making along the way that I need to be able to adjust.

But once you do it, your marriage is better because of it.

Totally.

And self reflection is something that also requires like insight and high iq.

Right.

There's a lot that comes along with it.

But I think that it is so beneficial.

I'm curious, when y'all engage in self reflection, do you talk about it?

So I find that like if I get an argument or I'm upset with someone, I self reflect a lot later of like what did I do?

How could I do?

But I don't necessarily tell that person, I don't necessarily communicate that with them.

And so they have no idea that I'm engaging in the self reflection and they probably walk off feeling like she didn't hear me.

It's going to be the same story.

Nothing's going to change.

Where I'm like truly trying to figure out what can I do different and why is this happening and why is this triggering.

I usually hold my self reflection in if just because I grew up non confrontational in our family.

So I hold everything in, figure it out myself and then just either get over it, deal with it, or move on.

Just because I always said I'm not going to change somebody else's feelings or thoughts or beliefs.

So I'm just going to live my life happy.

What about for your own mistakes?

For my own mistakes, I still do the same.

I just deal with it myself and then try to grow from those.

And you might grow and change.

You might have a plan to do something different the next time, but you might not tell someone.

Someone that yeah, for sure.

I mean the I've always thought the best way to learn and grow is making a mistake and then after that you don't want to do it again.

So you figure out, okay, I'm going to be smarter this way.

And it's just more of a.

I don't want to make that mistake.

So you grow from every mistake, and that's the only way I really learn that that actually stays in my brain, I guess.

Yeah.

I think I am definitely the sharer of the two of us.

So I will talk with Tyler about how.

Okay, I definitely made this mistake, and I could see why that upset you.

And here's what I'm going to do differently next time, partially because of the accountability, but partially because I want us to be able to work through it, feel better about it, and move forward.

So, yeah, I probably overshare.

Over, under, share.

Undershare is for me.

Yeah, yeah.

Which works, right?

Like, over and under.

It'd be weird if you had all over shares or all under.

It's like, we all.

Okay.

Other tips and tricks.

Anything else as you just kind of think about.

I mean, it sounds like you guys.

First of all, I love Yalls relationship, and I think that it's.

I love, like, both seeing pictures, but the way I feel like when I think of both of you, even if it's, like, through pictures or through, you know, interactions, y'all always find joy.

And I think you guys both find ways to make each other smile and make each other laugh.

And I'm curious if you.

If y'all have made that a priority or if that just happens.

I would say that's something that's happened naturally for us, which is such a blessing.

I think if it.

It didn't, we would probably both be the type of people to work to make it a priority, because I don't think it has to come naturally.

I think you can totally work to create some of that, too.

But luckily, I just find Tyler so funny, so it's easy to laugh at his humor and wittiness.

And I think we both really have childlike spirits when it comes to the emphasis of fun, and we make priority for fun.

And so, yeah, I think that's been something that's always been kind of a staple in our relationship, that when hard times come into play, we can break the tension with a little joke or do something like that, which really helps.

Helps, Yeah.

I mean, you're more funny outgoing than me.

I'm just more of the witty person.

So you're like the childlike spirit.

And every now and then, I'll get that spirit, too.

But anytime you're in a group of people, it's more of a There goes Cali.

Livening up the spirit.

Like, oh, gosh, way too much spirit.

But it's.

I'm more of a one on one or like a one on two person, happiness, outgoing, witty person.

But she's just the.

Alright, let's get her back in a little bit and calm her down.

But I mean there's no way not to be happy around her and.

Thanks, that's really sweet.

There's no way not to be happy around her and just catch that spirit.

But I mean there's the times of anxiety when she is down and stuff like that.

So for sure you see more than other people.

Yeah, it does make it harder to.

But.

But I mean sometimes if I'm tired or something like that, I'll kind of shut down.

2.

I always tell people that if I ask you to rate your relationship on a 0 to 10 and you tell me it's a 10, I'm more concerned than if you told me it was like a seven and a half or an eight.

Right.

Just because that's also life.

Like we can't.

Yes, people can be fun and we can see the fun and love it and experience it, but we can't expect that to be what we get all the time because then it becomes fake.

Right?

It's not real.

Yeah, we should always be growing.

Yeah, we should always be growing.

So last question I have is y'all both live super busy lives and super busy jobs and careers.

I do feel though, from what I know about y'all and your relationship that you guys are very intentional about finding and making time and making it be really important time like board games or y'all paint pictures or whatever you do together.

So I'm just curious like how, how do you do that and what, what does that look like for y'all?

I think we are good at holding each other accountable to the things that we know matter to both of us.

So I remember not this holiday season, but the one before that.

I was going through a lot of stress with my PhD and I came home one day, I knew I was going to be coming home late and I walked in the door and Tyler had our.

We only had two dogs at the time in matching hoodies and he was wearing one.

And so just like was able to laugh and enjoy that moment.

And I think we, we help pull each other to the present when one of us is on our phone and we're supposed to be enjoying an experience together.

Just things like that that are really meaningful and we are intentional with.

Or like I woke up the other day and he was like, it's been three hours and you haven't wished Leah a happy birthday yet.

Like how could you?

Which is their dog, by the way.

Yeah, Leah's our dog.

She was waiting.

Yeah, she was waiting.

So silly.

Things like that that.

But are meaningful to us and bring us joy.

We do a good job of making time for it because I think we both need it and know that we won't be in good moods if we don't incorporate things like that.

Yeah.

I would say one of my favorite times of the year is July, when we go to Mammoth Lakes, California, for our running camp.

That we do.

Callie brought me the first year as a staff, and that's where he proposed.

Yeah, it was a altitude project at Christian running camp that she was staffed the first year, and I was.

Or she was a counselor, and I was like, a driver, chef, person.

I didn't know what I was really.

I just showed up and they're like, okay, we'll take them.

And.

Yeah, I mean, every year we do that, and it's one to two weeks of no cell phones or minimal cell phones, no tv, no technology, really.

And I feel like that's just a mental reset from the hustle of everyday life.

And it's like we can just connect and spend as much time as we want together and just grow that way.

So, I mean, so important to have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's something that you can't do nowadays where everything is just cell phones and go, go, go.

Yep.

Always connected, which is nice and also horrible at the same time.

Well, I love everything about this, and I love getting to hear about the way you guys understand anxiety and the way it's shifted.

But I also love the message that it feels like neither of you are saying, when someone feels anxious, we fix it.

It's really like, okay, when someone feels anxious, we're there and we ask them what they need, and we kind of expect that it might take some time, but they'll move through it, and then we get back to the things we love.

Versus anxiety is bad.

I hate it.

Let's get rid of it.

Or why is it present?

You guys both seem to have a really.

Both understanding, but acceptance of the fact that it's gonna be there and we can work through it instead of it having Be.

Have.

Instead of it having to be something that's detrimental to the relationship.

Yeah.

So true.

So true.

And I know, Tyler, this was a really fun exposure for you too, so thank you for being here.

So much fun.

You just did an hour of an anxious moment.

So you did.

Thank you.

He's gonna get Matt at Matt later for not taking some of the heat.

Just a little bit.

Matt will.

We'll bring Matt on and then you can interview.

I'll make sure to be the recorder just so I could stare at him the whole time.

Perfect.

Yeah, perfect.

Well, thank you all for joining.

I loved it and I know we will do many more kind of relationship anxiety episodes to come.

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And there's one thing that I need from you.

Can you come through.